[Debate] The Infamous Magic of Zero

Debate in the comments if 000^0 should be 11, 00 or undef


000^0 is defined to be 1 by the IEEE.

That is so because that would be more useful.

What it should be essentially boils down to the definition of exponentiation you're using.


This is an indeterminate form:

limxaf(x)g(x)where (limxaf(x),limxag(x))=(0,0)\lim_{x \to a}f(x)^{g(x)} \quad \text{where } (\lim_{x \to a} f(x), \lim_{x \to a} g(x)) = (0,0)

But please understand that this is not the same expression at what we are looking


Note by Agnishom Chattopadhyay
4 years, 6 months ago

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"Indeterminate" means that there exists more than one alternative evaluation of the expression, which is clearly the case here. Hence, it's indeterminate. Given any value xx, some argument can be made that 00=x{ 0 }^{ 0 }=x. So, people can choose one value of xx as a "convention", but that's all it is, a convention, and not a derived mathematical fact.

Mathematics does not say that every expression necessarily evaluates to an unique value.

Michael Mendrin - 4 years, 6 months ago

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I have to agree with this. We can work backwards. If

20=212=12^0=\dfrac{2^1}{2}=1

00=010=0^0=\dfrac{0^1}{0}= undefined

Trevor Arashiro - 4 years, 6 months ago

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By that argument, zero has no powers, because, for example, 030=02\frac{0^3}{0} = 0^2, but division by zero is undefined, so 020^2 is also undefined.

Or, 020=0\frac{0^2}{0} = 0, so zero doesn't even exist!

Whitney Clark - 4 years, 6 months ago

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I completely agree that it is indeterminate. A few years ago, I came up with an example involving integer addition which shows that 000^0 can be either 0 or 1, and I put it in this post.

Christopher Mowla - 4 years, 5 months ago

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Since 00 is such a tricky number, as it cannot be algebraically manipulated, I like to try to take a look at things in a basic (caveman) perspective for once. nm=m timesn×n×...n×nn^{m}=\begin{matrix} m \text{ times} \\ \overleftrightarrow { n \times n \times ... n \times n} \end{matrix} So 00=0 times00^{0}=\begin{matrix} 0 \text{ times} \\ \overleftrightarrow { 0 } \end{matrix} It's like dimensions. 222^{2} gives a square of length 22, 333^{3} gives a cube of side 33.

So, 000^{0} would give a point. That point, in our 3D3D world, it's volume is 00. However, measuring the "value" of that point in 00 dimension would give...1? One could argue that since it's base is 00, the "value" of that point would be 00 even in 00 dimensions. This would explain why something like 30=13^{0}=1, because of the 33 as the base, in the 00 dimension it is still worth some value which would be 11.

I would say 00 for this case.

Julian Poon - 4 years, 6 months ago

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I really like your "caveman" logic. So, can we simply say the following:

mn=ntimes1×m×m×...×m00=0times1×000=1?{ m }^{ n }=\begin{matrix} \quad \quad n\quad times \\ 1\times \overleftrightarrow { m\times m\times ...\times m } \end{matrix}\\ { 0 }^{ 0 }=\begin{matrix} \quad \quad 0\quad times \\ 1\times \overleftrightarrow { \quad \quad \quad 0\quad \quad \quad } \end{matrix}\\ \Rightarrow { 0 }^{ 0 }=1\quad ?

Since multiplying by zero, zero times is equivalent to not multiplying anything at all.

Raghav Vaidyanathan - 4 years, 6 months ago

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waaaat.... But by doing this you are assuming that 00=10^{0}=1 at the second line to the third line.

Julian Poon - 4 years, 6 months ago

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@Julian Poon No, I think i just made the assumption that 00=1×000^0=1\times 0^0. Which seems right to me.

Raghav Vaidyanathan - 4 years, 6 months ago

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@Raghav Vaidyanathan Im starting to hate 00

Julian Poon - 4 years, 6 months ago

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@Julian Poon No, no, it's not an assumption. You can't get 00=00^0 = 0 by multiplying no zeroes, because there are no zeroes to multiply, like you can't get 30=33^0 = 3 since there are no threes to multiply.

Whitney Clark - 4 years, 6 months ago

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Well, he is trying to get a geometric interpretation

Agnishom Chattopadhyay Staff - 4 years, 6 months ago

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But in the 0 dimensional universe, wouldn't 0=1=2=... because that 0 is all that exists

Agnishom Chattopadhyay Staff - 4 years, 6 months ago

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Im not sure about that. It's like asking for the thickness of a 2D2D object. That's why I tried to assign a value for a 0D0D object, which I am not sure is the correct thing to do.

Julian Poon - 4 years, 6 months ago

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That is a nice way of looking at the problem, although it is only limited to non-negative integers

Curtis Clement - 4 years, 6 months ago

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It's like 0!0!. For example, in binomial theorem, we have the form (x+y)n(x+y)^n. If it is to be extended to the form (x+0)n(x+0)^n or simply xnx^n, we end up with the conclusion that 00=10^0=1

Raghav Vaidyanathan - 4 years, 6 months ago

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There is a big difference between saying f(a)=bf(a)=b and limxaf(x)=b\lim_{x \to a}f(x)=b. In the former, the function is defined at a, whereas this requirement is not necessary for the later relation.

sin(0)/0\sin(0)/0 is indeterminate. However, limx0sin(x)/x=1\lim_{x \to 0} \sin(x)/x =1

Janardhanan Sivaramakrishnan - 4 years, 6 months ago

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In case of a field with 00 as its sole element. With the operations 0+0=00+0=0 and 00=00*0=0, we will have 1=01=0, 01=00^{-1}=0 and other weird things.

Janardhanan Sivaramakrishnan - 4 years, 6 months ago

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Why do you want to work in this field?

Agnishom Chattopadhyay Staff - 4 years, 6 months ago

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The answer is here LOL

image image

Krishna Sharma - 4 years, 6 months ago

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Note that it states that the result is indeterminate, even though it appears to give you the value of 1.

Calvin Lin Staff - 4 years, 6 months ago

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That's why I posted this

Krishna Sharma - 4 years, 6 months ago

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I like 0^0 = 1 but the mighty alpha says indeterminate. link Them fellows over there are a might bit clever and they probably have a dang good reason for disagreeing with me.

bobbym none - 4 years, 6 months ago

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What does pappym think about disagreeing with one's own self?

Agnishom Chattopadhyay Staff - 4 years, 6 months ago

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Great, the argument is heating up! I got the fastest 8 reshares ever

Agnishom Chattopadhyay Staff - 4 years, 6 months ago

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yay! Im the 8th8^{th} reshare!

Julian Poon - 4 years, 6 months ago

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@Agnishom Chattopadhyay You didn't... the TKC, 'twas... :-P

Satvik Golechha - 4 years, 5 months ago

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000^{0} would be undefined.

First of all, any number raised to the power of 00 is equal to 11. If you would logically think of it, n0=nnn^{0}=\frac{n}{n} . However, 00\frac{0}{0} would be undefined, because it would give many contradictions.

However, on what I am saying that 000^{0} is undefined, it is very unstable too, giving more contradictions. For example, 05=000^{5} = 0^{0}. Surprised? Well, we can say that 05=0(61)0^{5} = 0^{(6-1)}. And 0(61)=06010^{(6-1)} = \frac{0^6}{0^1}, which would still be equal to 00\frac{0}{0}.

One thing's for sure: zero is very, very, very full of black magic.

Jeremy Bansil - 4 years, 6 months ago

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You say 000^0 is undefined, AND anything to the power 0 is equal to 1? That itself sounds like a contradiction.

Whitney Clark - 4 years, 5 months ago

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One should ask to oneself, does it correspond to a "real" life situation? We may look at this like this : I define factorials for all +ve integers (>0). In physical context, it corresponds to 'no. of arrangements of n things'. So, logically, 0!=1.(only one way!) . Then I extend this whole definition to +ve non integers too(Gamma Function) and that too tells that 0!=1. So, I can proudly say that 0!=1. Now, what's the need to define 0^0? It doesn't correspond to a "real" life situation. And speaking mathematically, it is an undefined form(strictly, it's undefined and not indeterminate. For(->0)^(->0) is Indeterminate),so it may be given any value. But what's the point in doing this? And if you do, then also define 0/0......

Shubham D Man - 4 years, 4 months ago

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If we assum 0^0 as one .then how would the graph be seen ,would it be a non continuous and what will its range.

Jash Shah - 3 years, 7 months ago

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It would be discontinuous at zero, I think.

Whitney Clark - 3 years, 7 months ago

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I do agree ,but would it be a point size gap will there be some range of ,ie.lim to 0 is still 1 but not for 0 so it would be unimaginable small that it would virtue to be a lin

Jash Shah - 3 years, 7 months ago

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I think that 0^0 should be 1

takingh(x)=xx h\left( x \right) ={ x }^{ x }

limx0+xx=limx0+exlogx\lim _{ x\rightarrow { 0 }^{ + } }{ { x }^{ x } } =\lim _{ x\rightarrow { 0 }^{ + } }{ { e }^{ xlogx } }

since limx0+xlogx=0\lim _{ x\rightarrow { 0 }^{ + } }{ xlogx } =0 The above limit should be 1 i'm not sure if this is right because i'm just taking two functions as f(x),g(x) as x when they could be any other functions tending to zero and h(x)=f(x)^g(x)

Atul Antony Zachariahs - 4 years, 6 months ago

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I agree that 000^0 should be 1, but not for those reasons. Multiplying by five squared is like multiplying by five twice, multiplying by 12 cubed is like multiplying by 12 thrice, multiplying by anything to the zeroth is like not multiplying by that base at all. It shouldn't matter what the limits are.

Whitney Clark - 4 years, 5 months ago

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2=02=01=00{ 2 }^{ -\infty }=0\\ 2={ 0 }^{ \frac { 1 }{ -\infty } }={ 0 }^{ 0 }

So this way 00{ 0 }^{ 0 } can be anything

Archit Boobna - 4 years, 6 months ago

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Division by infinity is not a valid operation. Infinity is not a real number

Agnishom Chattopadhyay Staff - 4 years, 6 months ago

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What if we put "n" instead of infinity there and write lim n->infinity

Archit Boobna - 4 years, 5 months ago

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@Archit Boobna That doesn't work either. limx>0xx=1\displaystyle \lim_{x -> 0}\frac xx =1, and limx>00x=0\displaystyle \lim_{x -> 0}\frac 0x =0, but 00\frac 00 is undefined.

Whitney Clark - 4 years, 5 months ago

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If you're saying 000^{0} can be anything, then it's undefined/indeterminate. That is that. Nothing can define it

Jeremy Bansil - 4 years, 6 months ago

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Yes, I'm saying that only

Archit Boobna - 4 years, 6 months ago

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How can you say that 2=0{ 2 }^{ -\infty }=0? Although I get your point, the expression is indeterminate. You can rather put it as

limx2x=0\huge{\lim _{ x\rightarrow -\infty }{ { 2 }^{ x } } =0}

Arulx Z - 4 years, 5 months ago

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Exponentiation is supposed to be a function, and functions can only have one value. Thus, 0x = 3 has no solution, 0x = 0 has everything for a solution, but both 0/0 and 3/0 are undefined.

Whitney Clark - 4 years, 4 months ago

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By the reflexive property of equality, it can only be at most one thing.

Whitney Clark - 4 years, 4 months ago

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It is not correct to assume 00=1 {0}^{0}=1 because 0/0 0/0 is not defined. If we think in terms of calculus, For example, lima0(a/a)=1 \lim _{ a\rightarrow 0 }{ (a/a) } =1 because the value of aa tends to 00 ,not equal to zero. This means its infinitely small but not equal to zero.

Conclusion Conclusion : 00=1 {0}^{0}=1 is wrong.

Saarthak Marathe - 4 years, 1 month ago

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There's a problem with that kinda thinking: 0/0 is not defined, but limx0xx=1\lim_{x \to 0} \frac{x}{x} = 1. The limit of the fraction is defined, even though the fraction is not.

Whitney Clark - 4 years ago

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undefined

Ramanathan K - 4 years, 6 months ago

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